The April 2016 ACEP Now article, “Emergency Medicine Workforce Needs More Women Physicians” by Kathleen Clem, MD, FACEP, sparked quite a bit of response after it was published online. We are including the comments here to illustrate the breadth of opinions on this topic.
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ACEP Now: Vol 35 – No 07 – July 2016Dan Marcus: So basically, this article could be shortened to read “men should be prepared to pay for women to be off to have a baby and men should work more night shifts to make it easier for their pregnant colleagues.” The article suggests that if these changes aren’t made, then patient care will suffer. I don’t support the subsidizing of coworkers’ life choices. I would, however, work extra if my colleague was unable to, whether they are male or female.
MB Lynch: Wow! Who pissed you off? Do you have any children? How would you feel about the mother of your child risking her life and your child’s life because they were so extremely overworked? Have you ever been pregnant? Breast fed a child or been so engorged you wanted to cry?
The author is not saying that men pick up the night shifts, but that everyone (including the non-pregnant females) help out for a few weeks for the mother and child’s health. Just like we do for our colleagues with family and personal emergencies.
You don’t want to pay for my life choices? You mean you don’t want to pay for me to create a life? How about if you get cancer (knock on wood) because you smoke…can I refuse you disability coverage? Additionally, I pay for short-term disability so that I could take maternity leave.
Women now make up 60 percent of medical students. Therefore, if medicine is going to survive, it needs to start to adjust to accommodate women doctors and our “choices to create life.” If men gave birth, I am sure they would demand better maternity leave and you would not have to pump in a bathroom. I’m sure you’d have a recliner with ESPN on a flat screen.
Get pregnant, give birth, and breast feed a child … then get back to me.
Women and their pesky uteruses are here to stay … get used to it.
Part of physician shortage is due to having 60 percent women in medical school and then that 60 percent are only working part time. Not a good plan for a national work-force issue. Finding a colleague who is willing to work nights and weekends and long stretches and extra shifts makes that person marketable.
Mark Buettner: Wow! MB Lynch, what a fantastic emotional rant that was. It was perfectly devoid of reason. Kudos to you. Let me give you some answers:
- I would be very upset if the mother of my child was risking her life and my child’s life. I would not tolerate it at all, as a matter of fact.
- I would advocate for women not to have children if they live a lifestyle that places them and/or their unborn children in a life-threatening position. This just makes sense, doesn’t it?
- I probably should not have to tell you but I will remind you that men cannot have babies. Nor can we breast feed babies. We don’t have the right plumbing.
- Yes, I think you should be able to refuse to pay for somebody’s disability. That should be the responsibility of Dr. Marcus. This would be similar to you taking time away from work should be your responsibility. I am willing to bet that he would agree with me.
- If you are asserting that medicine is at risk for not surviving because women now make up 60 percent of medical students, perhaps we should seek out more men to enter the field.
Glad to help.
Sincerely,
Mark
george: I respect all the issues. The gender equality issues should not include pregnancy and time-off issues. The numbers are correct and there is a gender gap. I, on the other hand, see a greater crisis. I am a black male in the field of EM. I have watched the numbers of women leap over the years. Yet, the percentage of African-American males in the field is at a critical joke level. Women complain about their poor numbers, but you are more likely to see a patient with Ebola than a black ER doc. It is just the truth. I respect the issues of women. I am just waiting to turn over a patient to a doctor of color before I retire.
EM Doc: I agree in equality, but to critique objectively, the author doesn’t mention percent of women applying to EM residency. If it’s 50:50, then sure—good article. If it’s 30:70 women to men, then are we already being given preferential treatment (36 percent women residents)? It would be interesting if anyone has the data …
JDA: Women with “their pesky uteruses” can then work jobs where their uteruses don’t get in the way. Equality means equality, not one group subsidizing another. Women may be 60 percent of medical school graduates but they are not 60 percent of the workforce because they CHOOSE to balance their lives based on multiple factors, one of which is having children. Part of physician shortage is due to having 60 percent women in medical school and then that 60 percent are only working part time. Not a good plan for a national workforce issue. Finding a colleague who is willing to work nights and weekends and long stretches and extra shifts makes that person marketable. If you CHOOSE to have kids, try to be super-mom; expect your colleagues to work around you and your personal life, and you will have made yourself less marketable. That is not gender inequality; it is marketability. Until women are willing to sacrifice personal goals for professional goals, they will not be able to be represented equally. To me, that is fair, not sexist.
el rubio: My residency director in New York City would roll over in his grave. I remember a female resident once called in sick for PMS and another senior female resident drove to her apartment and physically dragged her back to work. I have not missed a day of work in 25 years.
In my experience, pregnant students, residents, and physicians are very reluctant to risk exposure to infectious diseases such as TB, HIV, trauma, meningitis, chicken pox, mumps, plague, etc. This forces me to risk my life more often then usual.
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3 Responses to “Call for More Women in Emergency Medicine Sparks Online Debate Among ACEP Now Readers”
July 25, 2016
AMWhat is wrong with you??? All of the comments are the reason medicine is the most archaic profession with regards to gender equality. We are supposedly taught compassion and empathy, but I see none of that in any of these comments.
Sure, it sucks to cover maternity leave, but that’s why we have partners–to cover for us if there are issues (i.e. cancer/illness/pregnancy/deaths). Show some empathy! Stop treating your partners (male and female) like they don’t matter–this attitude is why there is a physician shortage!
July 26, 2016
BokieDockieIf I remember basic biology well, men and women are not created equal and, let us face it, bringing about quality in the workplace will have to include helping women overcome barriers to engaging in professional life. In addition, and this is a very logical argument (I’d know, I am a female with two PhDs and one MD, so I am super darn logical- it HAS been proven; also- miraculously not on my period today- what do ya know?; Is this enough for the misogyny-sympathizers on this board to accept an argument from a FELLOW EM doctor?; unbelievable, just unbelievable) all females do not get pregnant at the same time. So don’t make yourselves out to be such bloody martyrs because you are not the only ones bearing the burden of EM chicks taking the oh so long on average 2-week maternity leave. Oh you poor men who have to work so hard. Cry me a bloody river. Laughable.
August 7, 2016
Mark BuettnerDear “Super Darn Logical” Ms. Dr. BokieDockie MD, PhD, PhD; I agree with your first assertion that men and women are not created equal. However, I have a number of questions about the remainder of your assertions.
Let’s start with “Quality in the workplace”.
Would you please clarify for us the meaning of this new “Quality of the workplace”?
What will it look like in practice?
How will we measure this “Quality”?
Will this new “Quality in the workplace” benefit everyone in the workplace? If not, wouldn’t it be more accurate to refer to the effort as bringing about a better “Quality of workplace for Women”?
When you state that “bringing about “Quality” will have to include helping women overcome barriers to engaging in professional life”. Would this include either a) relieving women of their responsibility for caring for their infant children? or b) relieving women (at least temporarily) of their workplace responsibilities so they can care for their infant children? If your answer is b, wouldn’t this result in women engaging less in the workplace? Wouldn’t this directly translate into less opportunity for income? On the average, wouldn’t this create an opportunity (extra shifts or overtime hours) for men to make more income than women? Isn’t this what we are witnessing in the workplace now? Would this new quality of the workplace agenda involve correcting this income disparity with a better financial maternity stipend/benefit for women to make up for this lost opportunity? If so, wouldn’t this essentially amount to paying those women who have children more money for less work than all of their male counterparts?
Next, Logical Arguments: A recognition of logical arguments and a rejection of fallacy is absolutely crucial for a civil society to function. I believe the current state of our society is in decay because of a lack of respect for or recognition of logical arguments. We see too often the use of and acceptance of fallacy in logic and rhetoric. Unfortunately, this seems especially so coming from the media and our political leaders. We are now seeing this phenomenon rising to alarming levels from the social justice warrior groups.
I will accept it as truth that you have an MD and two PhD’s. I will also accept it as truth that it HAS been proven that you are “super darn logical”. Please correct me if I am wrong in considering that you have made the following logical fallacies:
1) The listing your degrees in support of your argument is a sub category of the “Red Herring” known as argumentum ab auctoritate or Appeal to authority/Appeal to accomplishment. The “Red Herrings” are fallacies.
2) Stating that you are “miraculously not on your period” and then referring to an entire group of individuals that may not accept your argument as “misogyny-sympathizers” is known as an Ad hominem attack. The Ad hominem is a fallacy.
3) Your statement “unbelievable, just unbelievable” is known as the “Pooh-Pooh”fallacy which dismisses an argument perceived unworthy of serious consideration. The “Pooh-Pooh” is a fallacy.
4) Your statement that “All females do not get pregnant at the same time” is a form of the Informal fallacy known as Ignoratio elenchi which means irrelevant conclusion or missing the point. It is irrelevant that all females do not get pregnant at the same time. Sometimes many females get pregnant at the same time. At no times do all or any males get pregnant. Ignoratio elenchi is a fallacy.
5) The remainder of your statements involve a spattering of Ad hominem attacks that collectively rises to the level of the Ad hominem subtype known as the “Abusive fallacy”. This involves using verbal abuse to discredit one’s opponent and is a distraction from the original argument. The Abusive fallacy is a fallacy.
Thank you Ms. Dr. BokieDockie MD, PhD, PhD. I welcome consideration of any non-fallacious response you might have.
Sincerely,
Mark